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written by j , August 26, 2008

So why is J&M blaming this on the fireman??? J&M has been doing fireworks for a long time don't you think they would not know the saftey issues and prevent them. The fireman did what was safe and right for the people and animals at the fair. And Chief Gavin and the fire crew are great guys and give alot to keep this community safe. A big thank you to the Caledonia Fire department.

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written by Anthony Lealand , August 27, 2008

Chief Gavin is has wrecked a well set up firework show from a very reliable and safe company. If he saw a potential problem why did he not communicate weeks ago? It this sort of official power tripping that leads to total disresprect for officials.
Anthony

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written by k , August 27, 2008

It doesn't sound like they are blaming anyone - just questioning why concerns were brought up at the last minute and the show cancelled when they had two months to look at the plans and discuss any issues. Sounds like someone dropped the ball. I would think that the Chief would have looked at the plans in a timely manner or delegated someone else to deal with the sitution in a timely manner (meaning in June and not an hour before the event). And then communicated and negotiate with J&M on any safety issues before hand and the day of as they are setting up - just in case something changed on the original plans.

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written by Jeb , August 27, 2008

K is right - all of the listings for the fair showed the fireworks to be at the "grandstand" why didn't the chief check this out ahead of time? He had access to more information than the rest of the fairgoers and we were all informed the fireworks was going to be in front of the grandstand.

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written by Brad , August 27, 2008

If you fill out an application for a fireworks display don't you think you would follow up with it before the fireworks display. I did not read anything about J&M receiving their application back saying the display was APPROVED or Denied. If you sent in an application for a building permit and did not receive the permit (approved or denied) back prior to the date you were going to start construction would you just start the project and hope the permit was approved? On J&M's website it recommends 300 feet for any shell less than 3 inches (heard that was the size). I might not be the best at judging distances but I would say there is no more than 300 feet between the grandstands and Wiebke's buildings (house, barn with hay?, pigs?, cows?, and more than likely fuel). The pulling track is only 350 feet! I would have to say that there is no place by the grandstands that would allow for a 300-foot radius. Here is the link to the J&M website http://www.jandmdisplays.com/i...ances.html It looks to me that the Chief did the only thing he could, STOP the display.

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written by matt hoscheit , August 27, 2008

lets hold on a second here and get some actual facts straight
1.j&m states they contacted cheif gavin, when? by who?, the aplication was submitted to the the city office but what representative actually talked to cheif gavin ?
2.is it the cheifs job to run a "proffesional" company down and make sure they are doing there job?did they have a signed permit from the cheif? (no)why did they not contact him to see why it wasn't signed?
3.at about 5:00p.m. ,I ,who was in charge of the lining up the manpower to stanby for the display ,after comuunicating with cheif gavin about concerns of where it was happening and what eqiupment was required, drove to the fairgrounds in my personal vehicle to talk with the representatives from j&m, after a breif talk was advised only a "brush truck" would be needed and that he (mark) didn't have time to talk as he needed to "start setting this up", i advised him of my cell phone number and asked him to call had there be any reconsideration due to weather or location , not three units and personell as mr.oetken described.
4.after "communicating" with cheif gavin, i advised him of our conversation ,he said he would get there as soon as possible as he was still at work, cheif gavin responded first to the station , then to the fairgrounds, where he talked with neighbors and sized up the situation, and advised us to respond due to concerns of safety , according to the sherriffs office log, units responded at 20:34 (8:34p.m) ,cheif gavin had been on location for some time already, after a short meeting with the members he advised us his concerns seemed to have fallen on "deaf ears", and he was very very concerned for safety and property "everywhere".
5.cheif gavin and i met with the fairboard members and met at the site to show our concerns , at which they agreed was a issue, and supported the decision at which time they(the display) were cancelled
6.if after 27 years and 30,000 displays the first inspection wasn't done 60 minutes before aparently you handled it differantly? is it our cheifs job to track you down and make sure you have everything in place? remember you are the paid proffesional fully licensed, does your phone not work as well , or was a problem with you not "communicating with your dept?"
7.the site didn't go away , have you ever even been there? did you talk with the neighbors about the possibility of property damage? did the gas ,diesel,propane , hay and cattle just apear since you drew your maps?what about the livestock already nervous from there trip into the fair? maybe the best way would be to have the minnesota state fire marshalls office come down and review this?

cheif gavin is the least "power trip hungry" person you will ever meet , it was a very very hard decision to say"no" , you should be ashamed to step up and point the "his fault" finger when you are the proffesional that didn't have things safe and in order, you can talk untill you are blue in the face about permits ,it was simply a case of "unsafe conditions" and he did what was in the communities"s best interest ,hundreds of people have come forward to say "you did the right thing!" , he is our cheif and i speak for all the members of the department when i say WE BACK HIS DECISION FULLY and thank him for all he does!

you already dealing with a community that has a tragedy from a fireworks display, we didn't need that to happen again !

matt hoscheit ,member of the caledonia fire dept, acting on my own behalf

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written by I Love the Fair , August 27, 2008

I would have loved to see all of the 4H members chasing their exhibits as they headed over and through the fences towards Brownsville after the first concussion went off. I watched the junior rodeo at the fair this year, I know a few of those young cowboys and cowgirls could have helped rope some of them up. Too many things could have gone wrong with that close of proximity to people, animals, and the Smokin Crome food stand, which has the best Pork Wraps around!! I support Caledonia FD!!!

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written by Scrambler , August 27, 2008

Plenty of room for fireworks by the carnival. Maybe the fireworks could have started the carnival on fire and put it out of its misery. What a waste of time and money. Next year have a slip and slide and a sprinkler.

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written by matt klug , August 28, 2008

Has anyone heard of Charles City Ia on the 4th of July check it out this is what J and M displays does for ya.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XU-HdrSNdf4
check out this link it takes a bit but wait until the end to see what houston county fair could have looked like

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written by ken miller , August 28, 2008

Matt, you could also check out the MANY thousands of other displays that they and so many other companies have fired without incident. And by the by, J M was found not to be at fault by both the Iowa state fire marshal's office and their insurance company.
Have you ever traveled by air or do you point to the latest plane crash and say "this is what ya get from XYZ Airlines!"? We all see the little crosses on the side of county 249 and every other major road. Yet, we still get in our vehicles and brave the dangerous outside world.
As far as the animals, fairs have had fireworks as long as there have been fairs and typically, they have much heavier fireworks than would have been seen in Caledonia. Check it out.
Again, I don't work for J M but after 25 years of being full-time in the fireworks biz, I can tell you with great authority that you can hire a HELL of a lot worse folks than those @ J M.

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written by Cgrave4U2 , August 28, 2008

J&M Displays first priority has always been safety and in 27 years of operation and over 30,000 displays, J & M Displays had never before experienced a fire chief or inspector that did a first time inspection of a show site 60 minutes before the start of the show. A first-time inspection is usually done days or weeks before the show so that everyone has an opportunity to review the safety procedures and locations and allow the set up of the fireworks to be in the best possible location.


I am a fire chief in a town that uses J&M. I have never met them, seen an application, reviewed any plans with them, or toured a site with them. I love fireworks, but they shouldn't say things that they dont do.

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written by bigger picture , August 28, 2008

i think the bigger picture or maybe even the whole picture here is the safety factor, i think j&m are capable of putting on fine safe shows ,but , this was simply not safe , also j&m didn't hold a signed permit,also it didn't meet there own advertisized set back recomendations , if a airplane or car crashes its terrible but shouldn't every effort be made to correct the problem or to prevent it from happening again?
how can the idea of several buildings full of nervous cattle and a yard full of 150 cattle even sound like a good idea to shoot anytype of fireworks near them?
step up to the plate and take responsability , leave the fire dept alone, thanks fire dept for thinking of the outcome and our safety!

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written by matt klug , August 28, 2008

Ken I don't quite see the relevance in what you are saying. You are talking about accidents and the Caledonia Fire Chief and his Dept prevented one. That is all there is to it. I understand that you say there are worse people then J&M but its easy to say there are better as well.....

http://www.jandmdisplays.com/information/rcommended-shoot-site-distances.html

HERE IS THE LINK TO J&M DISPLAYS. It clearly states distances that were not even close to what they had at the hcf grandstand. What did they have 40 feet maybe?? Come on ......

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written by Michael , September 02, 2008

I'm Michael from Liuyang China(Liuyang is center of fireworks in the world),and now we are one of largest fireworks company.We have been manufacture professional fireworks and consumer fireworks for over years.
www.myspace.com/liwenquan66
This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it

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written by Angel Miller , September 03, 2008

I am a friend of the J&M display operator, Mark and also a resident to the Caledonia area. If you knew him, you would know that everything is done by the book. He and his company do not take risks. It's not good business. As far as the accident in Iowa, it was a defective finale shell that blew in the mortar and only one finale rack was affected. Mark was not there. They were found to be not guilty by the insurance company and the Iowa State Fire Marshal. And when it comes to the proximity to fuel at the farm, the law states farther distances from BULK storage of fuel. As I understand, it was a residential size tank. And besides, the only time it would be a risk, is if it was leaking and if it was leaking, then it would be empty(happens quickly). I too respect all volunteer fire fighters. My husband owes his life to them (being a burn victim), but let's not ruin a good man's reputation over this. About the distances on the website, stating for 300 feet distances, it's a general starting point for anyone visiting the site interested in having a fireworks show. It's basically to deter the average Joe from calling them up to have a show put on in their backyard. Mark did everything he was supposed to, when filing for the permit. He is very thorough and takes pride in what he does. He submitted it in June, by sending it to the City Clerk. The City Clerk then notified Gavin, which Gavin admitted to Mark right before the show. The City Clerk then signed it and sent it to J&M Displays in Southern Iowa. Don't you think it's odd that a fire chief would not check out the site map and at least show up the morning of and take a look-see???? If he's supposed to fight fires, shouldn't it be a priority to check out something that might start one? The show was going to be special and safe. Mark knows what he's doing. This isn't his first rodeo. As far as a massive display or such a big threat, a lot of the same caliber shells could have been bought at a fireworks stand in Wisconsin (but Mark was going to shoot higher quality ones and more of them in professional cakes and lancework). I've been in the fireworks business for 16 yrs and J&M shows are the only ones we bother to take our boys to. I noticed that there's a fireworks show at the Caledonia Haulers on the 6th. The CEO of Caledonia Haulers is named Gavin. Prolly just coincidence. I know that there's a small timer fireworks guy that is a volunteer fire fighter in New Abin. He's lost shows to Mark, like Eitzen fourth of July. Is he doing fireworks at Caledonia Haulers? hmmmm I dunno Might be worth looking into.

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written by Angel Miller , September 03, 2008

I am a friend of the J&M display operator, Mark and also a resident to the Caledonia area. If you knew him, you would know that everything is done by the book. He and his company do not take risks. It's not good business. As far as the accident in Iowa, it was a defective finale shell that blew in the mortar and only one finale rack was affected. Mark was not there. They were found to be not guilty by the insurance company and the Iowa State Fire Marshal. And when it comes to the proximity to fuel at the farm, the law states farther distances from BULK storage of fuel. As I understand, it was a residential size tank. And besides, the only time it would be a risk, is if it was leaking and if it was leaking, then it would be empty(happens quickly). I too respect all volunteer fire fighters. My husband owes his life to them (being a burn victim), but let's not ruin a good man's reputation over this. About the distances on the website, stating for 300 feet distances, it's a general starting point for anyone visiting the site interested in having a fireworks show. It's basically to deter the average Joe from calling them up to have a show put on in their backyard. Mark did everything he was supposed to, when filing for the permit. He is very thorough and takes pride in what he does. He submitted it in June, by sending it to the City Clerk. The City Clerk then notified Gavin, which Gavin admitted to Mark right before the show. The City Clerk then signed it and sent it to J&M Displays in Southern Iowa. If the office that issues permits, doesn't know the details, then why is the permit being issued? Don't you think it's odd that a fire chief would not check out the site map and at least show up the morning of and take a look-see???? If he's supposed to fight fires, shouldn't it be a priority to check out something that might start one? The show was going to be special and safe. Mark knows what he's doing. This isn't his first rodeo. As far as a massive display or such a big threat, a lot of the same caliber shells could have been bought at a fireworks stand in Wisconsin (but Mark was going to shoot higher quality ones and more of them in professional cakes and lancework). A few were a bit bigger, but not by too much. I've been in the fireworks business for 16 yrs and J&M shows are the only ones we bother to take our boys to. I noticed that there's a fireworks show at the Caledonia Haulers on the 6th. The CEO of Caledonia Haulers is named Gavin. Prolly just coincidence. I know that there's a small timer fireworks guy that is a volunteer fire fighter in New Abin. He's lost shows to Mark, like Eitzen fourth of July. Is he doing fireworks at Caledonia Haulers? hmmmm I dunno Might be worth looking into. I wonder if he'll get the same kind of treatment?

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written by matt hoscheit , September 03, 2008

in regards to your letter
1.bulk fuel storage , 1) 500 gallon diesel barrel,1)500 gallon gasoline barrel,1) 1000 gallon lp tank , residential fuel storage? i think a little bigger!
2.300 feet distance on there website is the same as the nfpa spec, if there were more details they should have noted it
3.mark filed the permit with the city but never checked with cheif gavin as to why he had not signed it, how come the map he drew he never showed one ,not one building in the fallout area?or any of the fuel sources?why didn't he contact the homeowner 120 feet from the display, did you happen to notice the other town cheif mention they aldo didn't have the paperwork from j&m?
4. what was cheif gavin to look at the mornig of the show , he wasn't even informed where it was besides "grandstand" in the newspaper, why didn't mark contact him?i don't think its fair to single out mark ,why was j&m not conserned with a unsigned permit?
5.as far as the fireworks display on the 13th (not the 6th)there have been two meetings so far with site inspection , a full map and full communication (15 days before), names and positions have nothing to do with this , what is cheif gavin or any of the fireman gaining but not letting them be displayed? i'll tell you what public safety!
the minnesota state fire marshall did a site inspection here yesterday (tue sep 02) and everything is in order for the sept 13 display , the display will be put on by precocious pyrotechnics , i'm sure it will be by the book as he helped write it! we have been shown the utmost proffesionalism ,not "i can't talk i gotta set this thing up"
the fire marshall also did a site inspection of the fair grounds i look forward to his findings as he showed some concerns!and felt the fire department and cheif gavin acted fully with the proper actions

matt hoscheit ,fireman, acting on my own behalf

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written by Angel Miller , September 03, 2008

I need to apologize about questions raised concerning this other show. Maybe rumors shouldn't be mentioned. Maybe I got a bit carried away. It's just that some people's comments seem unfair to Mark. Not knowing all the facts, I should just prolly stay out of all of it. I'm sure the fire dept first concern is safety. Again, I have much respect for fire dept. Hopefully there will be less misunderstandings next time. Sorry my post was on here twice. Thought I lost connection....

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written by Julie , September 03, 2008

Angel I think your last post was probably the best post on here so far.
Let people do their job. It is Chief Gavin's job and he did it.
Caledonia has more serious problems then a cancelled fireworks show.
If all of you want to do something get out there and help the kids of the area. Volunteer.

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written by Linda , September 03, 2008

Thank you Matt for the corrections. I have no idea how Caledonia haulers' event even got brought into the discussion. As the event coordinator,Our Display on the 13th is in my lap if I don't have things organized and verified. With any event, it is all in the details and not having the permit signed off if a Major Detail that was overlooked. Matt is correct that there has been two meetings with the fire cheif. Our 1st meeting on site with the display operator was almost 2 months ago before the city permit was applied for. I agree that Chief Gavin was justified in calling off the fair event. Safety 1st. The type and size of the shells along with wind makes a huge difference in site fallout and specator safety. Our event is also on the smaller size range but still required to be near 300' of clearance. I also don't think it should all be put on the shoulders of J&M. The organizers dropped the ball in not getting the permit signed BEFORE the event. We had 2 of 3 required signatures and had a site visit with the city and fire chief BEFORE we ever advertised to the community. I hope our display on Sept.13th is well attended and we invite all to come and enjoy.

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written by Angel Miller , September 05, 2008

One last comment - the permit WAS signed. J&M did their part. Is it their fault that the chief prolly just forgot about the whole thing? We all know he has a full plate and is human. People say he forgets a lot, does he? Mark DID contact the right people! He sent in all the right stuff to the right people. I don't know how much more contacting he has to do. If anyone dropped the ball, it's the city clerk and the chief.

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written by #5CHILD , September 06, 2008

Chief Gavin was right on!!! City Hall get your act together and start taking responsibility for Caledonia. If you don't, we will lose our great town. The facts are plain and simple. Be thankful and praise the awseome fire department you have. That's right, people of Caledonia just like to complain.

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written by Brad , September 08, 2008

Angel - I saw the permit and it was not signed by the fire chief. I thought you were going to leave rumors out of the discussion yet you relay another "People say he forgets a lot, does he?" That sounds like hear say to me. You are right Mark did contact the right people but did he hear back from the right people. Refer to 5th post about permits. I think if anyone dropped the ball it was J & M for not checking to see if the permit was APPROVED or DENIED, not the clerk or the chief. Just my $0.02.

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written by All4Safety , November 07, 2008

Part two:

Even if Minnesota State Code has formally adopted NFPA 1123 specifically and mandates that this is the code to follow (and barring any alterations or tightening of those codes locally) the local fire chief and/or fire marshal is the ultimate authority and anything they say the shooters need to comply with becomes law within their jurisdiction.

The J&M statement says that in over 30 thousand shows over 27 years that a Fire Chief has “never” done “an initial site inspection” only one hour out from show time but in the Charles City, IA official State Fire Marshal report, the local Charles City Fire Department did just that. Further, the Charles City Assistant Fire Chief is quoted as having stated that this inspection (one hour out from show time) was the ONLY inspection made of that ill-fated show.

This makes the J&M statement at the least disingenuous and at the most – patently false – raising suspicions about the veracity of the other claims contained within it as well.

Anthony, your one-sided and obviously biased observations placing total blame on Chief Gavin from halfway across the globe is a prime example of what not to spout off about when you have no facts to back yourself up with and; Angel, no matter how many ‘rodeos’ a fireworks shooter has ‘been to’, it is his/her responsibility to work with the local authorities to maintain and ensure a safe and proper shoot environment for the display. If the statement attributed to him about his not being able to talk to the fire department and/or the chief because he was too busy is true, then he was way out of line and not conducting himself in a proper and professional manner.

There is NO time when a lead shooter can allow himself or herself to be too busy to attend to matters of putting on a safe display – ever. If you have been ‘in the fireworks business for 16 years’ as you say, you should know this as gospel. Nothing is more important than putting on a safe show – nothing.

As to the issue of what is ‘Bulk Storage’, it is defined as ANY PERMANENT or SEMI-PERMANENT container or tank holding Fuels, Chemicals, Explosives and/or other flammables – period. Regardless of capacity, if there was, any fuel tank(s) in the area which could not be moved or emptied/cleaned and made harmless, per NFPA 1123, the minimum separation distances MUST be DOUBLED. If they had to be doubled, the minimum distance required to shoot those ‘little’ shells that ‘anyone can buy at a roadside stand’ would be 840 foot across the shoot site (420 foot from the center of the racks wherever they may be) in ALL directions. If the racks are separated by 50 feet, add 50 feet to the total across. If they are separated by 75 feet, add 75 feet tot the total, etc.

Finally, on the almost insignificant matter of the animals on the grounds, as has been pointed out, fireworks and fairs have a long history of coexistence and while it is true that some animals are bothered by the loud noise, I know of no case where the animals have been permanently harmed, have stampeded or caused harm at any fair.